Misplaced Pages

Talk:Quillette

Article snapshot taken from[REDACTED] with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Shinealittlelight (talk | contribs) at 16:41, 10 December 2020 (→Political pigeonholing in the lead section: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 16:41, 10 December 2020 by Shinealittlelight (talk | contribs) (→Political pigeonholing in the lead section: re)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Quillette article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months 
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconMagazines Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Magazines, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of magazines on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MagazinesWikipedia:WikiProject MagazinesTemplate:WikiProject Magazinesmagazine
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
See WikiProject Magazines' writing guide for tips on how to improve this article.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconAustralia Low‑importance [REDACTED]
WikiProject iconQuillette is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
Need help improving this article? Ask a Librarian at the National Library of Australia.
[REDACTED]
The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to help@wikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.

Template:WikiProject Libertarianism

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconPolitics Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconPodcasting Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Podcasting, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of notable podcasts and podcast-related information on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PodcastingWikipedia:WikiProject PodcastingTemplate:WikiProject Podcastingpodcasting
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Media mentionThis Quillette has been mentioned by a media organization:
The contents of the Wrongspeak page were merged into Quillette on October 7, 2018. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Quillette article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 3 months 

Edits to remove basic 'blank slate' definition

Two editors (one being a now banned sock-puppet) have now undone my edit which included the very brief definition of Blank Slate as "the theory of human development, which assumes individuals are largely products of nurture, not nature" – which came from the original source and is a very common term in science and psychology. See here, here and here. It is appropriate to be included in that quote for the reader. I do not know why two editors have attempted to remove it when it's a very basic term, and was a popular ideology in the 20th century. There was entire book named after the term: The Blank Slate, or read about David Reimer who was famously castrated and turned into a woman in infancy due to blank slatism, and raised as a girl under the belief his parents could socialise him into a girl. I find it highly unusual that two editors have attempted to remove this definition from the article when they openly express the fact they do not know what it means (see this edit in which the editor writes: "tabula rasa is very different to what ever this "blank slate orthodoxy" is that Lehmann is talking about")... In reality: blank slatism is almost identical to tabula rasa and had a fine definition from Politico. Baconundrum then went and posted an 'edit warring' notice on my talk page, completely ignoring the WP:AGF guidelines and the definition of 'edit warring' which requires three successive edits in 24 hours. 'Blank slatism' is a basic concept, defined appropriately and briefly by Politico, and is important to include in the sentence. It should not be removed based on the opinions of editors or their misunderstanding of the concept. I have read a Quillette article probably 3 times in my entire life because they do sometimes happen to post good opinions from established experts in psychology/science (I personally think what Lehmann says to be at times ridiculous), but I won't tolerate editors deleting basic definitions because they WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This is my line of knowledge. I always try to to WP:AGF, and I am sorry if this message 'seems' grumpy, but it does get tiring when editors remove perfectly cited content for unbeknownst reasons. Note that my edits are actually in the field of science and psychology, while others clearly have a more political interest. That is fine, but don't bring your views into editing. I am going to alert Crossroads who can hopefully check this for me. Sxologist (talk) 23:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hey Sxologist, sorry if I've offended you, please stop taking things so personally. You were edit warring, it's not a personal attack and I certainly do assume good faith - no hard feeling, hey. I understand you are fairly new to this, so I'll explain...be BOLD when making edits, if someone disagrees they REVERT your edit, if you really think your edit should stand you take it to talk, like we are doing now and 'DISCUSS as per Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Bacondrum (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Passive aggressive and patronizing comments are not necessary. You have previously deleted your account in a huff after constant warnings and criticisms over your ideologically motivated edits. You even wrote: "I've no respect for this place or the people that run it. I will never be returning". Does that sound like someone who respects Misplaced Pages policy? WP rules don't bend to your liking when you feel like it. I'm glad other editors could see that. Sxologist (talk) 02:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
In my view, it really doesn't matter what we think 'blank slate' means, or how it's related to 'tablua rasa'; all that matters is that our RS says that it's the theory that "individuals are largely products of nurture, not nature". Since that's what the reliable source says, there's no doubt that the claim is verified. So the claim must be that it's undue, is that right Bacondrum? I'm fine with including it, and it seems sort of helpful to include it. But I'd like to hear what the reason was for removal. Shinealittlelight (talk) 23:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
On the face of it I don't see the harm in having the statement and can see why it would be useful to the reader. I don't feel strongly about it but absent an explanation why we would want to remove it I'm in favor of inclusion. Springee (talk) 01:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
A brief explanation of what "blank slate" means in this context is due. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I think the quote is undue, but I'm not diametrically opposed to its inclusion. What I'm really not okay with is the wikilink. We can't be sure what she means by blank slate orthodoxy, What is "blank slate orthodoxy"? Sounds like some personal ideological stance to me. I don't think we should be wikilinking within the quote in such a manner, it's like putting words in her mouth...we are giving meaning to her quote that is not explicitly stated by her. Tabula rasa and "blank slate orthodoxy" don't necessarily seem to me to be the same thing. Bacondrum (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't really care whether we include the wikilink. But I will note that WP redirects 'blank slate' to the tabula rasa article, and I see no reason she doesn't mean what everyone means by it. Moreover, our tabula rasa article says "Generally, proponents of the tabula rasa theory also favour the "nurture" side of the nature versus nurture debate" which suggests that the theory as explained at that article is exactly what our source identifies as what Lehmann meant by it. Shinealittlelight (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Exactly. Lehmann is educated in psychology; it's perfectly clear what she means when she refers to "blank slate orthodoxy". As is written here: "Blank slate is the epistemological thesis that individual human beings are born with no built-in mental content". Additionally, the opening paragraph on the Wiki article for Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate states that "the author makes a case against tabula rasa models in the social sciences, arguing that human behavior is substantially shaped by evolutionary psychological adaptations". When she says 'Blank slate orthodoxy' she is referring to a dominant view in sociology that we are born with brains like playdough which are set entirely by our upbringing. It's been discredited for decades, yet is still dominant in SOME schools of thought. Anyone who has studied psychology, genetics or biology is utterly frustrated with it's dominance... twins who are raised apart in radically different environments are remarkably similar. It doesn't even matter IF it is an orthodoxy or not because her opinion stays in quote marks. The definition of 'blank slatism', however, is well established and correctly outlined by Politico. Bacondrum, I'm going to assume good faith and believe you have a misunderstanding of the term and concept. Sxologist (talk) 02:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

We definitely should explain to the reader what is meant by the phrase "blank slate", and the Politico source does so in the context of Quillette, so I'm not seeing any good reason not to do so. I would put the phrase as "a theory of human development which assumes individuals are largely products of nurture, not nature", including that wikilink. Wikilinking to tabula rasa may also be good. Note, too, SarahMinuit was a sockpuppet, and as such, their opinion counts for zilch, and they can be reverted by anyone for any reason per WP:Block evasion. Crossroads 02:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done: I have included the sentence with that structure. Thank you Crossroads. Sxologist (talk) 02:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

And I accept the consensus. Thanks. Bacondrum (talk) 02:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Possible additional sources

General:

On that list of journalists:

More Archie Carter:

On Yang (pretty minor):

On transgender issues and Helen Joynce:

On Cancel Culture:

Huh. Amazon shared a Quillette post:

Jlevi (talk) 01:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Notice: General reliability discussion at RSN

For editors watching this page, there is a discussion regarding the reliability of Quillette at RSN ] Springee (talk) 12:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Political pigeonholing in the lead section

Please can we have some well argued references for the alignment of this publication (as opposed to just lifting unexplained tagging from opinion pieces). If it's libertarian, that's fine but all we have at the moment are unexplained assertions which might just reflect incorrect assumptions of the journalist or them lifting it from Misplaced Pages. Until then I suggest we leave the various perspectives on it's position to the main body. Conan The Librarian (talk) 04:25, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

The lead is generally intended to be a summary of the body. Feel free to explain why these sources do not meet WP:RS if you wish, but Misplaced Pages summarizes source, so it's not enough to imply that they might be incorrect. Grayfell (talk) 07:33, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
  • That is how it is generally described per the sources in the article; since Quillette is (per the rest of the article) mostly notable for aggressive culture-war broadsides, obviously citing descriptions of its political position are important; it isn't our place as an encyclopedia to debate whether that description is "well-argued" or not. That said, I've added a few more sources that also describe it as conservative (one in the article already does so.) --Aquillion (talk) 08:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
The profile of Quillette in CHE presents a more nuanced take. It says ...you can see why detractors might peg Quillette as reactionary conservatism for the Ph.D. set...yet Quillette has lately shown a willingness to rankle its core constituency... It then goes on to talk about criticisms in Quillette of Dave Rubin, Jordan Peterson, and the so-called IDW, as well as a piece in about transgender athletes that doesn’t fit snugly into a political category. Shinealittlelight (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Categories:
Talk:Quillette Add topic