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No map of 17th century religious divisions?

@Aearthrise: Following the changes you did in late January, there is now no map that shows the religious divisions of the empire on the eve of the Thirty Years War. It appears that you tried to replace the old map by File:The Protestant Union within the Holy Roman Empire (c. 1610).svg, and then decided to get rid of it entirely. I think that's been a mistake, and would suggest that we add back File:HolyRomanEmpire 1618.png. Renerpho (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Since there was no opposition, I've added back it back. Renerpho (talk) 10:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

History subsection, 3rd paragraph

Towards the end of the paragraph, the pope's name is incorrectly listed as Leo III instead of Gregory II. IvyYorke (talk) 19:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Wrong list of constituent territories of the Crown of Bohemia

Under the "imperial families and dynasties" chapter there is a section enumerating the constituent lands of the Crown of Bohemia as follows: "Bohemia (as well as associated territories such as Upper and Lower Alsatia, Silesia and Moravia)"

Instead of Upper and Lower Alsatia it should probably say Upper and Lower Lusatia.

Also Bohemia could be referred to as the Crown of Bohemia to differentiate it from the Kingdom of Bohemia, but I saw that this idiom is not used for the other composite monarchies so I'm not sure on this one. Shakti1311 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Minor error in description of incorporation of Pomerania

In the section under the Ostsiedlung, there is the following sentence:

From the late 12th century, the Duchy of Pomerania was under the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire and the conquests of the Teutonic Order made that region German-speaking.

The first part of this is largely correct but the Teutonic Order was not engaged in conquering the Duchy of Pomerania (which is western part of the region stretching across modern northeast Germany and northern Poland, and is the part that became part of the empire in the late 12th century). There may be confusion here, as the Teutonic Order was definitely engaged in conquering the eastern sections of Pomerania which were never incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire. So the sentence should read closer to:

From the late 12th century, the Duchy of Pomerania was under the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire. The easternmost parts of Pomerania, on the other hand, remained outside the empire. 82.37.177.12 (talk) 21:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction of Capital of the Holy Roman Empire (1220–1254)

Hello,

I noticed an inaccuracy in the article regarding the capital of the Holy Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Frederick II (1220–1254). The article currently states that Foggia served as the capital of the Empire during this period, but this is not historically accurate.

Correct Information:

During Frederick II's reign, Palermo, located in Sicily, was the primary administrative, cultural, and symbolic center of his rule. While Foggia held significance as a royal residence and administrative hub during certain periods, particularly for logistical purposes during campaigns in mainland Italy, it was never the capital of the Holy Roman Empire.

Key Historical Context:

Palermo’s Significance:

  • Palermo held the title Prima Sedes, Corona Regis et Regni Caput of the Kingdom of Sicily. This translates to "First Seat, Crown of the King, and Head of the Kingdom," affirming its official status as the seat of power, site of royal coronations, and capital.
  • It was the cultural and intellectual hub of Frederick's empire, hosting his court.
  • As the core of Frederick’s Sicilian domain, Palermo was essential to his rule and represented the legal and symbolic heart of his governance.

Foggia’s Role:

  • Foggia served primarily as a royal residence and imperial seat, a practical base for Frederick to administer his empire during his conflicts in Italy. Its location made it a strategic choice for coordinating military and political efforts across the empire.
  • The Latin inscription on the Palace in Foggia—"Hoc fieri iussit Federicus Cesar ut urbs sit Fogia regalis sede inclita imperialis"—refers to it as a "royal city and illustrious imperial seat." This highlights Foggia's importance but does not designate it as the capital.
  • While significant, Foggia’s role was temporary and functional, lacking the permanence, symbolism, and cultural weight of Palermo.

Sources and Revisions:

The claim of Foggia as the capital lacks credible historical support. Similar claims in the Italian Misplaced Pages article on the Kingdom of Sicily were removed due to insufficient and unreliable sources. Describing Foggia as a temporary imperial seat or administrative hub is more accurate and consistent with the historical evidence.

Suggested Revision:

To avoid misinterpretation, I suggest revising the article to clarify that Foggia, while an important imperial residence and administrative hub, was not a capital, either de jure or de facto, of the Holy Roman Empire. AstolfoPannaci (talk) 20:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, It appears that Foggia has indeed been removed from the list of capitals, however, I noticed that Palermo has also been removed, which was not my request. Palermo was indeed the capital of the Holy Roman Empire during Frederick II’s reign, this is supported by valid historical sources. I kindly ask for Palermo to be reinstated in the Capital list from 1194 to 1254 with the past listed sources. Thank you once again. AstolfoPannaci (talk) 16:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)
@AstolfoPannaci: I do not agree that Palermo, which lay outside the empire, belongs as a capital. It may have been the seat of the emperor for a time, but that is because the emperor was also king of Sicily. Indeed, Fogia regalis sede inclita imperialis is much closer to affirming Foggia as an imperial capital than Palermo. But neither was any more than Madrid when Charles V was there. Srnec (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
I disagree. While Foggia may have been a significant royal seat (Regalis sede) during certain moments, it cannot be considered a capital of the Holy Roman Empire. A royal seat and a capital are not the same; Foggia was one of several administrative seats Frederick II used, but Palermo was the center of his authority for much of his reign.
As both Holy Roman Emperor and King of Sicily, Frederick’s governance naturally centered in Palermo, where even his imperial court resided. Palermo was not only the capital of the Kingdom of Sicily but also where Frederick conducted significant imperial business. This makes it historically accurate to consider Palermo as a de facto capital during Frederick II’s reign, especially given his unique role as a ruler of two realms. AstolfoPannaci (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
The comparison with Charles V isn’t useful. The bureaucratic functions of the empire were much more developed and German centered by the early 16th century. Not so in the Tim elf Frederick II. As Davi Abulafia notes in his biography of Frederick II, capitals as a concept are, per se, not a useful concept when considered a peripatetic monarch as Frederick II—similar to Henry II of England. The ‘capital’ was effectively where Frederick was. That said, Palermo had immense status as a city but Abulafia documents conclusively how Frederick rarely resided in Palermo after his return in 1220. The idea of Palermo as the center of Frederick’s government is counter factual, belonging more the conception of his grandfather Roger II if Sicily, who mostly resided in the city. To Foggia is attached more significance, by Frederick’s own decree as has been noted here, as his base of operations in the Mezzogiorno—far and away his preferred ‘seat’ and on of this “places of solace” as Georgina Masson’s biography details. Stupor26 (talk) 15:42, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Palermo was not just the capital of the Kingdom of Sicily, it was the center of Frederick II’s administration, culture, and imperial ideology during a significant period of his reign, It was the site of the famous Sicilian School of poetry and even after 1220, when Frederick spent more time in southern Italy, Palermo remained a symbolic and administrative capital, where important imperial decrees and cultural advancements originated.
Foggia was indeed a key administrative and logistical hub for Frederick’s campaigns in southern Italy. However, describing it as a "capital" conflates practical necessity with symbolic and administrative preeminence, the title “Regalis sede inclita imperialis,” does not imply that Foggia was an imperial capital. Rather, it acknowledges its importance as one of Frederick’s many royal residences, moreover, Foggia lacked the cultural, symbolic, and enduring administrative role that Palermo maintained throughout Frederick’s reign. Comparing Foggia to Palermo in terms of significance is like comparing a field office to a national headquarters.
While it is true that Frederick, like many medieval rulers, was peripatetic, the idea that "a capital was wherever Frederick was" oversimplifies his governance, Frederick II’s reign was unique because he fused his roles as Holy Roman Emperor and King of Sicily, and Palermo was central to this dual identity. While Frederick’s presence fluctuated, this did not diminish Palermo’s central role. The administrative structures and cultural advancements tied to his reign were rooted in the city, reflecting its continued importance as a de facto capital.
Modern historians recognize Palermo’s unique status during Frederick II’s reign. For example David Abulafia (Frederick II: A Medieval Emperor) and John Julius Norwich (The Kingdom in the Sun) consistently emphasize Palermo's central role in Frederick’s empire, particularly as the symbolic heart of his rule and while Foggia played a significant role in certain periods, its importance was functional rather than symbolic or administrative. Thus, Palermo deserves precedence as a recognized capital during Frederick's reign.
Palermo has long been listed as a capital of the Holy Roman Empire for the period of 1194–1254 in this page and many others. To remove it now without sufficient justification undermines established historical consensus and risks misrepresenting Frederick’s governance. AstolfoPannaci (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
Palermo has been removed from the infobox without consent. The status of capital compared to other cities of the Kingdom seems obvious to me because only in Palermo are the sovereigns of the Kingdom of Sicily crowned (this is the foundation of the monarchy and the Kingdom) and the sources cited have no doubts about this. I would like to point out that I have read the attached Italian sources and they are written by German scholars who believe that the Kingdom of Sicily was part of the Empire defining this union "personal union". Upon the death of Henry VI, an imperial vicar was sent from Germany to Palermo to govern alongside the emperor Constance; this event undoubtedly demonstrates that the Kingdom of Sicily was part of the Empire but above all that in the Palermo period it was its capital (the emperors themselves are buried in Palermo and not in Germany).--Conannn (talk) 19:30, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

Lead size

A few days ago, on December 21, the lead of the article was reduced (diff, minus 1,392 bytes) and some changes were made in the text. I just wanted to ask, was this change something that had been discussed and agreed upon here? and was the introduction really in urgent need to be trimmed? The previous 'stable' version of the lead certainly didn't seem WP:TOOLONG, especially considering the topic of this article. It struck me as a surprise that the current lead of (barely) two and a half paragraphs appears a bit too small, not only for the total size of the article, which leaves a lot to summarize in the introduction, but also when considering the very significance of the subject itself. Piccco (talk) 00:09, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Removing opinions and random explanatory text seems good to me. Is there specific concerns about what content you believe should be reinstated? Moxy🍁 01:11, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

"Almost"?

The lede describes the HRE as having "lasted for almost a thousand years", but, working from the earlier start date of 800AD, it lasted for 1005 years (and seven months), which is not "almost". While the later date of 962AD would put it below a thousand, surely the compromise should be "about a thousand years". 47.55.84.248 (talk) 14:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the precision in either case is excessive. Remsense ‥ 论 19:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)
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