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This is an archive of past discussions about Israel–Hamas war. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Wording issue - Sentence

Hello,

This is just a small suggestion regarding as of now a possible error in the wording (key word words, thats all).

Past the previous period, the sentence " 200 civilians were slaughtered in the Kfar Aza kibbutz, and according to some Israeli sources at least 40 babies, some of whom were beheaded."

The word "Beheaded" is red, indicating that "no article has been made". The proper[REDACTED] article is known as "Decapitation"

Again, this is just an objective suggestion regarding a possible error in wording.

Note I do not wish to imply anything else from this comment. It is only based on and only of grammatical issues: NOTHING ELSE. 2601:601:A400:D4A0:C96B:23D9:63D4:60D1 (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done The author tried to do just that but misspelled Decapitation. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 06:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Good work there. I give my thanks for the correction.

- "2601-601" 2601:601:A400:D4A0:C96B:23D9:63D4:60D1 (talk) 07:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas-Israel truce?

@KiharaNoukan: you added:

Gaza and Israel had recently negotiated a truce, mediated by Qatar, Egypt, and the UN on September 29.

But I don't see anything about a 29 September truce in the source given. Are there any sources that say this?VR _talk 15:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a very fair point. For now I've tagged that sentence with , but I would be in favour of removing it entirely. After a brief look I cannot find any sources that say it, and frankly this seems like the kind of thing I think we would have heard about. AntiDionysius (talk) 15:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording with a different source, truce is too strong a word, idk how important it is/was in the overall scheme of things. Selfstudier (talk) 15:53, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, that clarifies things, thank you. AntiDionysius (talk) 15:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes more sense.VR _talk 16:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vice regent Yes, it's in the Guardian Article I cited.

From Bethan McKernan, pg 14. "Hamas officials always say that they will respond to Israel “at a time and place of our choosing”. But the timing of this unprecedented aerial and ground attack has caught both Israelis and Palestinians completely by surprise. The two sides had just negotiated a truce, mediated by Qatar, Egypt and the UN, after three weeks of violence and unrest at the separation fence."

Beth cites another Guardian article stating "An uneasy calm has returned to the strip, and border crossings for workers to enter Israel reopened on 29 September after mediation efforts by the UN, Egypt and Qatar." I will reword to re-add egypt + UN and link to the "3 weeks of violence." I don't have issue with the word "mediation" since that term is also used. KiharaNoukan (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

References

1. "Israel declares state of war after Hamas fires thousands of rockets and 'militants cross border' – live". Guardian. October 7, 2023.

You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Does this apply to our own edits or just those of others? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 17:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Only others.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Emphasizing the severity of the situation in Israel

This edit request to 2023 Israel–Hamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This article doesn't emphasize the uniqueness of this situation in Israel. Can we add the following sentence to the third paragraph in the article?

From

Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage of at least 3,000 missiles against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into its territory. Palestinian militants also broke through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forced their way through Gaza border crossings, entering and attacking nearby Israeli communities and military installations, killing at least 1,000 Israelis in the process according to Israel. Numerous cases of violence against Israeli civilians have occurred since the beginning of the conflict, including a massacre at a music festival that killed at least 260. Israeli soldiers and civilians, including children, had been taken hostage by Palestinian militants to the Gaza Strip.

to:

Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage of at least 3,000 missiles against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into its territory. Palestinian militants also broke through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forced their way through Gaza border crossings, entering and attacking nearby Israeli communities and military installations, killing at least 1,000 Israelis in the process according to Israel. Numerous cases of violence against Israeli civilians have occurred since the beginning of the conflict, including a massacre at a music festival that killed at least 260. Israeli soldiers and civilians, including children, had been taken hostage by Palestinian militants to the Gaza Strip. This is Israel's deadliest conflict in terms of civilian deaths since its War of Independence in 1948.

--199.203.101.124 (talk) 18:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  Not done - A source is needed and also on the Israeli_casualties_of_war#Regular_conflicts. The 1948 war says 2,400 civilians died in that war. Doing the math, Per Palestine: 925 killed and Per Israel: 1,200+ killed, it equals 2,125. Doing math is enough, a WP:RS claiming it is the deadliest in terms of civilians' deaths since the 1948 War of Independence is needed. Thank you for the suggestion by the way. Cwater1 (talk) 03:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Syria

Just as a heads up, I have placed Syria in the infobox after it exchanged artillery fire with Israel a few hours ago. Ecrusized (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This shows that the Syrian government is participating, but this is not official yet. There are Palestinian groups operating from Syria. Dl.thinker (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I am not aware of any Palestinian groups presence in Southern Syria but it could indeed be pro-Iran militia's like Liwa Fatemiyoun or Hezbollah. Nevertheless Syrian government is complicit with these groups and it's unlikely that they are acting without it's approval. In Lebanon on the other hand, Hezbollah acts independently from the Lebanese government, often entering into conflict with it. Ecrusized (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

An artillery fire across the border is an act of war. But we do not really know who that was. Was it Syrian government or a group of rebels? Without knowing this we can not indicate "Syria" in the infobox. My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

It does indeed appear to be Palestinian groups cooperating with Hezbollah according to SOHR. I will remove Syria for the time being. Ecrusized (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Subtitling Biden's speech

Hi, I wrote subtitles for Biden's speech, but I'd like it if you could double-check some parts. What's between the brackets?

1. Mr. President, can you tell us what asked you
2. I get up this morning Hamas terrorists Thank you!

FunLater (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Bracketed answers are in bold

Mr. President, can you tell what Bibi asked you?

I get up this morning and started this at 7:30, 8:00, my calls, Hamas terrorists...

Full video transcript is here for your reference: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/biden-delivers-remarks-israel-attacks-191712456.html Seven Train (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Added the subtitles. Thank you. FunLater (talk) 23:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023 (3)

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at 2023 Israel–Hamas war. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please change the mention of médecins sans frontières to the correct spelling as demonstrated here, under "casualties" in the sub header "causalities in Palestine". In addition the report from MSF is mentioned twice in said section, once as being from "doctors without borders", with both mentions being linked to the page for MSF. Please remove the second of the mentions in the text and simply move the cite to the first mention. XeCyranium (talk) 21:40, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@XeCyranium:  Partly done: I've made the first two changes, I'm a little confused about the third one. Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the changes. As for the third request I believe the sources for the casualties mentioned by MSF twice are referring to the same two people at the same hospitals, so only one mention is necessary. Given the vagueness of the BBC article I can't be certain but given they're referring to strikes on a hospital where one driver and one nurse were casualties I'm almost certain it's the same event. Also the second mention of MSF is still linked instead of being plain text. XeCyranium (talk) 21:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate Comment with citation 161.

Under 10th October, comment says "Reporters brought to the scene saw no dead babies". . Source 161, The Telegraph article makes no such claim at any point. It does state "dozens of dead civilians were found" and that "Hamas killed babies and children in a massacre discovered by Israeli soldiers".

This comment should probably be removed as the citation does not show this to be true. If another source can be provided, then it needs to be updated. Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 22:51, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tankcomdestroyer Unless I'm missing something, citation 161 doesn't mention dead babies because the statement it is backing up also does not mention dead babies. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 22:54, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Under Timeline, Israeli Response, 10 October. Second sentence: "Reporters brought to the scene saw no dead babies.^." The source does not mention or infer or imply that reporters did or did not see dead babies. Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 22:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah the citation numbers have all shifted. Its 147 now? Heres the link anyway: citation in question Tankcomdestroyer (talk) 23:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023 (4)

This edit request to 2023 Israel–Hamas war has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change the name of this article from "2023 Israel-Hamas war" to "The October War" Woofrr (talk) 23:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

That's something that ought to be avoided, because a) that would be a term invented by Misplaced Pages (which we try avoiding), and b) there have been several wars that have started in October (counting the Yom Kippur War!), so it would not be specific. Bremps... 00:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Bremps is correct, we only use names used by reliable sources. Right now, they're calling it the Israel–Hamas war. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Background- pov

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in the lead paragraph, descrining the background against which the Hamas attack was launched it leaves out the murders of Israeli people such as 2023 Huwara shooting only refering to the settler violence in reaction, this violates WP:POV. "The crisis represented a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which followed a violent year that saw increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians, clashes in Jenin and at Al-Aqsa mosque, which killed almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis;..." 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 23:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

should say- The crisis represented a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, which followed a violent year that saw the murder of Israeli civilians, attacks against security personel, and reprisals including the increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians; as well as clashes in Jenin and at Al-Aqsa mosque, which killed almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis; 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 00:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2601:14D:5081:72C0:1578:99D9:C358:9B7E (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Such a change should be backed up by plenty of reliable sources. Every source cited is biased in some way, but you have to show how the language used is disproportionately leaning towards one side; that's what WP:POV means. Do you have a source that states there was an increase in murders of Israeli civilians in the past year and that it was a catalyst for the Israelis to act? The spirit of the original sentence is to state why Hamas attacked, not why Israel responded (which of course, is because they were attacked by Hamas). Yue🌙 05:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

condemn of labeling word "militant" for palestine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This discussion is going nowhere constructive. Edward-Woodrow • talk 19:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I was disspointed for who labeling palestinian as "militant" in this article as lokking[REDACTED] have siding to pro israeli page. please remove this word and replace to another word to become fair. Insankerdilmahubersuara1993 (talk) 04:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

We are not talking about a regular Palestinian army, are we? Borgenland (talk) 04:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The majority of international RS are using "militant", NYT, WAPO, Reuters. Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

the only acceptable term in this instance is militant. Azz205 (talk) 18:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

this is correct, the only correct work is terrorists. Mark28482 (talk) 18:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel was entirely founded on the back of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, Mark. Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house with very thin walls. 2607:FEA8:A4E1:BC00:4807:859:2490:54CD (talk) 01:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

this is not true at all, and regardless, what does that have to do with the kids murdered today? (attack removed) Mark28482 (talk) 05:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Even if this were true, our responsibility is to label them as RS label them. The term most RS are using, as mentioned above, is militant. There is no realistic reason to diverge from this. Arakui (talk) 10:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

"Terrorism" is an extremely loaded label and should be avoided where it can be (see ). It has been contentious for a long, long time among experts. See here, here, and here for example. None of that is to make a value judgement on the actions of Palestinian militants in this, or any, conflict. It is just such labels don't provide any utility or add anything to the discussion except to bog it down. Yr Enw (talk) 11:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i disagree, the actions under taken that day are by definition terrorist acts. there is no argument about it, only from terrorist apologists and sympathizers. are you one of them? Mark28482 (talk) 18:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

My views, as are yours, are irrelevant to how we frame articles. You can disagree all you like but we don't edit Misplaced Pages on the basis of our personal feelings. You can disagree, but academic scholarship takes precedent over your (or my) opinion. Yr Enw (talk) 18:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

When the purpose of an act is to make people fearful, to terrorize, to call it anything else is an example of making evil banal.

While militancy may have motivated their actions as actors they are terrorists, or if you prefer militant terrorists. But terrorists nonetheless. The purpose of these acts is not militancy but to terrorize. It is not to accomplish Hamas’ stated purpose, the death of all Jews, and the end of the State of Israel. The purpose of these acts was only to terrorize, to provoke Israel, and then use the death of their own people that they would hide behind as propaganda.

The climate protesters who superglued themselves at the US Open were militants but not terrorists. Their act might have enraged many because it delayed the tennis but no one was fearful, in terror, as a result.

Calling them militants minimizes their acts of terror to a more acceptable level. This is whitewashing horror at its worst and continues a banality of evil.

The proper word for these individuals is terrorist and not militant. Ideal18 (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

how you say militans from Palestinians when they the group of terrorist come from Iraq?!?!?! Wtf you talking about you one of them ?! 2A02:6680:110D:B518:84BF:9988:6A6A:F596 (talk) 09:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorrt group of terror come frome iran . Y you say Palestinians!?

Thry come from iran itan sand this terror group to murder ! To do terror its not militans!! Stop say wrong bulshit !! 2A02:6680:110D:B518:84BF:9988:6A6A:F596 (talk) 09:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• Note: The following sentence, back by two WP:RS, is added to the article and timeline article appropriately.

In the afternoon of October 10, President of the United States Joe Biden announced that "Hamas has set a goal of killing Jews".

I think it's fairly clear that the use of "militant" is safe to use, as tons of WP:RS use it as well. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:50, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The BBC is using "militant" and resisting the government's pressure to use "terrorist". Interesting as it's Director General is a Tory and until this year its Chair. Doug Weller talk 10:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

ofcourse bbc is resisting.its not new. only terrorist for them is indian prime minister and hindu groups who resist or respond to islamic fundamentalism/terrorism. groups like hamas etc are freedom fighters who are fighting for a just cause no mater their ways of fighting. in this case, evryone else is responsible for hamas behaviour but hamas.so much opression by everyone on muslims they had to act this way.had to kill in cold blood,had to behead,had to rape etc. everything is justified. Observer1989 (talk) 15:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

YAN unsourced opinion. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

YAN unsourced comment Observer1989 (talk) 18:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023 (5) // Please add a sentence that was agreed to be added in a discussion.

This edit request to October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

contribs)

Please change: "On 7 October 2023, Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas launched a large-scale invasion and offensive against Israel from the Gaza Strip, breaking through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forcing entry via the Gaza border crossings, into nearby settlements in Israel and military installations. Hamas called it Operation al-Aqsa Storm. It is the first direct conflict within Israel's boundaries since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into Israeli territory, with several attacks on surrounding Israeli civilian communities and Israeli military bases. Some observers have referred to these events as the beginning of a third Palestinian intifada. For the first time since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel formally declared war. An Israeli operation launched in response has been called Iron Swords by the IDF."

To: (Change is bolded)

"On 7 October 2023, Palestinian militant groups led by Hamas launched a large-scale invasion and offensive against Israel from the Gaza Strip, breaking through the Gaza–Israel barrier and forcing entry via the Gaza border crossings, into nearby settlements in Israel and military installations. The conflict is considered to be the deadliest non-state terrorist attack in Israeli history, and one of the deadliest terrorist events worldwide. Hamas called it Operation al-Aqsa Storm. It is the first direct conflict within Israel's boundaries since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Hostilities were initiated in the early morning with a rocket barrage against Israel and vehicle-transported incursions into Israeli territory, with several attacks on surrounding Israeli civilian communities and Israeli military bases. Some observers have referred to these events as the beginning of a third Palestinian intifada. For the first time since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel formally declared war. An Israeli operation launched in response has been called Iron Swords by the IDF."

This is basically adding back an edit from 11:21, 9 October 2023, which has been griefed. Said change was agreed to in the discussion: "Deadliest terrorist attack in Israeli history?" Thank you in advance! רם אבני (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Cleveland Jewish News and World Jewish News doesn't strike me as reflecting a balance of reliable independent sources, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 17:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Wall street journal

CNBC

BBC

Politico

The Free Press

Here are more. When adding the change, please refrence these too, and filter what you deem reliable or not. Yet this amount proves major newspapers regard this terror attack as "Israel's 9/11" due to it's enormous amount of murdered, kidnapped, and videos full of pride of Hamas in killing, which are spread across social media. רם אבני (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

WSJ is an opinion article, I checked the next two and couldn't find anything to support the proposed edit so I gave up. Please show sourcing that contains the text you are proposing. Thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 18:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for adding an opinion article, I didn't notice. Excuse me for that.

Here is a list by the 'German online platfrom specialized in data gathering and visualization' about the deadliest terror attacks worldwide.

When we add this terror attack to this list, it becomes the 5th. The dead count is still unknown, but Israel is reporting 800+ dead, and since the terror attack is still going on, more may sadly be added.

It's 5th. There for it is "one of the deadliest terrorist events worldwide." as said in my edit request.

About the "deadliest non-state terrorist attack in Israeli history", the Re'im massace (part of this terror attack) is already listed as first in death toll, in the Misplaced Pages article "List of massacres in Israel".

If this doesn't suffice, please tell me and I'll go look in more resources. Thank you for your time. רם אבני (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, it is not as yet in statista and putting it in "by hand" would be OR. Also WP is not a source. You might have better luck if you search for sourcing without the terrorism label. Selfstudier (talk) 18:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier I ask for others to come forth, and discuss the matter with us. רם אבני (talk) 18:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@רם אבני: I don't understand why there is so much pushback over this. In the latest media figures, they are saying at least 1,200 deaths and I'm sure that will sadly continue to rise. Based on the latest information, assuming this does in fact constitute a true "terror attack", wouldn't that constitute this as the 2nd deadliest terror attack in world history after 9/11? The Camp Speicher massacre in 2014 killed at least 1,095, which would rank it 3rd deadliest. The numbers speak for themselves, what am I missing here? Undescribed (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Independent reliable sources that support the proposed text, those don't appear to be forthcoming atm. Selfstudier (talk) 10:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Selfstudier

I too don't understand your pushback.

We already established that it is one of the deadliest terror attacks, by comparing it's deathtoll to the deadliest terror attacks that happend in 1970-2020.

and here are independent reliable sources that support the proposed text:

CNBC

BBC

The Free Press

If we do a vote, this is 2 yay to add, and 1 nay.

This amount of sources satisfies the sentence.

And yet, I would agree to move said sentence to a split article from this one, regarding the terror attack. רם אבני (talk) 16:23, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation section has bias

The argument used behind the $6 billion dollar claim is fungibility. If Iran knows it is getting money for humanitarian purposes, it can repurpose existeing funds to back Hamas. Without adding this tidbit, the section is exposed to bias. AtypicalPhantom (talk) 23:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't do our own analysis in articles. Find a reliable source that says this, and it may merit inclusion. --Jprg1966 23:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Along those lines, the section feels more like a WP:COATRACK than anything else—specific instances of bad info being given relatively WP:UNDUE weight based on sparse sourcing does not improve the article. As such, I've removed the content, and I would object to its restoration in the form that it was. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a spin-off Misinformation in the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict needs to be created. Abductive (reasoning) 20:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd say the opposite. We don't really need these minor details on Misplaced Pages at all. It's only worth mentioning if it's widely covered and analyzed by reliable sources. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

So you'd rather keep the "minor details" such as cluttering up the main article? I guess that's good, as more people will read about them there. Abductive (reasoning) 07:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

New Numbers of Hamas casualties published by Israel

Israel claims that the IDF found more than 1'500 bodies that were Hamas fighters/ "Terrorists".

Please take with a big grain of salt as it was published by the IDF, that had a huge Bias against their enemy, Hamas.

As of time of my writing, Hamas did not respond to the claims. Poles Ragge (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources:

SRF ( Swiss/German) : https://www.srf.ch/news/international/angriff-auf-israel-israelische-vergeltungsangriffe-auf-den-gazastreifen

Times of Israel (Israeli/English) : https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-weve-found-1500-bodies-of-hamas-terrorists-in-israel/

Die Welt (German/German : https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article247911596/Israel-Liveticker-Rund-1500-tote-Hamas-Kaempfer-in-Israel.html

Der Stern (German/German) : https://www.stern.de/news/israelische-armee--leichen-von--rund-1500--hamas-kaempfern-in-israel-entdeckt-33898840.html

Poles Ragge (talk) 08:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The casualty figures are attributed in the infobox as "per Israel" and "per Palestine". If we include Hamas estimates, then we should also include IDF estimates. Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like an article Misinformation in the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict will need to be created. Abductive (reasoning) 20:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Why no account of the documented rape in War Crimes section?

Sources :

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1jw11zfwt

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/inevitable-despicable-truth-behind-hamas-rampage/news-story/f5b3b46a49cce4054b345c386d93bb29

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/where-are-the-women-2/ Israeli women are fighting for their right to protect their children, protect their bodies, and sustain their lives. Women of the world who claim to care about global humanitarianism are watching terrorists burn Israeli girls alive, rip babies from mother’s hands, shoot children in front of their parents, rape women in the streets, and parade naked female bodies around Gaza — and they somehow can’t muster a word." 2A02:14F:1EE:2038:0:0:9E5E:2A16 (talk) 12:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I've just added this to the Militant incursions into Israel section. Once this is called a war crime, we can add it to that section as well. Alaexis_¿question? 12:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

In this quote from an article by Bruce Hoffman, this is called a war crime:

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/israels-war-hamas-what-know

"However, at least according to what is being reported, Hamas and PIJ fighters have committed and are still committing a vast array of what can only be described as war crimes. The reports of executions, sexual abuse, civilians being pulled from their homes, and other depredations will not go unpunished by Israel." 2A02:14F:1EE:2038:0:0:9E5E:2A16 (talk) 13:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Idk whether there is any basis to these allegations, has this been reported in any of the more well known news outlets? Selfstudier (talk) 12:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The Tablet site appears to function as a blog. The same author, a rather extreme self-described Zionist, claims elsewhere on the same site that RFK Jr is a vaccines truth teller (which, needless to say, is disputed). The National Review does not do original reporting of its own and on its Editors podcast today all of them simply took at face value every shocking allegation such as beheaded babies. The news.com.au source is itself merely sourced to the Tablet piece and to a tendentious Twitter account which "repeated unverified claims that some hostages have been raped". The CFR is similar to NR in being a think tank/opinion shop as opposed to a news gatherer and just alludes to Netanyahu's claim of rape. Given that the Israeli Foreign Minister made a debunked claim that Jewish toddlers kidnapped as part of the attack were being put into cages we can't take the claims of Israeli politicians at face value. That leaves Ynet, the online outlet for Yedioth Ahronot, a tabloid. A tabloid is not necessarily an uncitable source but is not a very good one for a sensational claim. The claim is attributed to a woman who doesn't say she witnessed such herself - unlike other events which are told as a first hand witness - but rather that "they raped women even after killing them" as part of a rant about "beasts. Predators. Animals". A beastly massacre appears to be verified but not rapes.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel threatens Egypt to attack any humanitarian aid going to gaza civilians from rafah crossing

Israel threatens Egypt to attack any humanitarian aid going to gaza civilians from rafah crossing: https://twitter.com/aja_egypt/status/1711701305679331699

two Egyptians were reportedly injured by israeli bombardment of rafah crossing: https://www.almanar.com.lb/11024928 Stephan rostie (talk) 13:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Why are material casualties (tanks, armoured vicicles) not inclouded in the casualtie box?

They were added in the beginning but were removed, why? It's a important information (in my opinion). Without tanks and vehicles listed, it can be misinteprented that israel didn't loose any Armour. Poles Ragge (talk) 13:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The info might not be available yet, but if you find a source you may be able to add it. AitvarasVienas (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Info might not be available? There were litteraly multiple vidoes last saturday (begin of the crisis) of a israeli tank burning and some vehicles captured by Hamas fighters/terrorists.

There are plenty of sources in form of videos of these, made BY Hamas terrorists/fighters, published all over the internet.

Also, due to the protection of this article i can't edit anything at the moment. Poles Ragge (talk) 16:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Counting individual tanks and other weaponry and equipment from videos and tallying them would probably constitute WP:OR. Bremps... 00:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Airport closure

not true. There are literally commercial flights to georgia, europe and arab countries since saturday. In fact the former Just a few hours ago. Anyone can check it on flight radar. Further, El al have not changed plans. 37.252.92.97 (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The article currently says Airports in southern and central Israel were closed to commercial and private use, while Ben Gurion Airport and Ramon Airport remained operational. It's not clear what airports would supposedly be closed; Ben Gurion and Ramon are the only airports in Israel with regularly-scheduled commercial traffic. Walt Yoder (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

While a few sources attribute a statement about the closures to Israel Airports Authority, I'm not seeing it. And a (partial) closure of some private airstrips doesn't seem particularly relevant. It might be better to say something like While Ben Gurion Airport and Ramon Airport remained operational, many foreign airlines canceled flights to Israel. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:46, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Walt Yoder (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas using american weapons (which allegedly were sent to ukraine)

This edit request to October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

After Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, butchered its citizens and took hundreds as hostages, videos captured the horror and the celebration in Gaza. What was pointed out by experts was the flashing of American weapons, especially what they said were M14 assault rifles, in the celebratory videos. US Congresswoman has called for an investigation into the source of US-made weapons used by the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas in the ongoing conflict in Israel. Observer1989 (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This narrative includes some extremely loaded words: terrorists, butchered, horror without attributing the use of those terms to particular sources. There is absolutely no way this is going to get incorporated unless you neutralise the language. And, anticipating a potential counter-argument, I am not in any way saying the described actions are acceptable or justified. Yr Enw (talk) 16:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i understand. i just dont know how to whitewash terrorist inhuman acts properly.i prefer calling spade a spade.i am new to wikipedia.maybe ill learn from people here.thanks for the reply Observer1989 (talk) 16:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Avoiding a contentious value-laden label that has not garnered consensus is not whitewashing, it's about how we present information in as neutral a manner as possible. Try to keep in mind:

1. On Wiki, we are not the arbiters of what constitutes terrorism, butchery, or horror. We report what reliable sources say, aiming to reflect the general consensus in media and scholarship as best as possible. So, you could say "X says Y is terrorism" (this is already included in the article) but you generally shouldn't interpret the acts as terrorism in your narrative yourself.

2. We have this policy on using such words and the general wiki policy on narrative voice while editing, in case these are helpful to consult.

3. If you disagree with the above, you can discuss a policy here or you can propose an alternative/change here. Yr Enw (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

thanks for the info. ill review the policies.you have been helpful. i am only surprised that consensus is not to label this act of hamas as terrorism. i understnad the palestenian viewpoint of fighting against occupation altough its true i am biased here and believe it was a jew land first and babylonians,romans and muslims continously invaded and expelled jews from their historical land.muslims in addition to slowly changing the demography even bulit their own structures on top of their religious structure based on some claims by their prophet. its more like a clan war.i also do not fully agree with how israel treats palestinians tho but the problem here is that these specific acts carried out by hamas cannot be justified by saying they are just fighting because of occupation.these are inhuman acts.you either have to be soulless or a fanatic to do these kind of acts.i wont go into detail on what they have done but a civilized democratic world will always consider it terrorism.only islamic world will consider it justified fight for freedom. but in any case i appreciate you telling me about different policies of wikipedia. i will definitely read and learn from it. Observer1989 (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome. The issue with the word "terrorism" specifically is probably best discussed elsewhere in those policy forums, but I will just say it has been contentious for a long, long time among experts. See here, here, and here for example. None of that is to make a value judgement on the actions of Palestinian militants in this, or any, conflict. It is just such labels don't provide any utility or add anything to the discussion except to bog it down. It is perfectly possible to criticise, think immoral, criticise, oppose these actions without needing to use the term "terrorist". Yr Enw (talk) 17:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

and it should probably be pointed out consensus against using the label just means it's better avoided because other terminology does the job already Yr Enw (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

We should never include anything Marjorie Taylor Greene says and it's ridiculous to even suggest to do so. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:29, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The US military stopped acquiring new M14s almost 60 years ago and was replaced by the M16 in 1967 due to performance issues in Vietnam (although it was still standard issue for some units stationed in Europe and used in basic training until 1970) and sent/sold hundreds of thousands of them to other governments in the 1970s. I'd say that it's highly unlikely that any of the M14s seen in these videos we part of any recent military aid program to Ukraine (from what I can gather, only the sniper and marksman versions and small quantities of rifles for ceremonial purposes are still used outside of some law enforcement agencies). Best, GPL93 (talk) 16:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

There are an awful lot of M14s circulating in the world, including in use in Israel by the IDF; there are a thousand places these ones could've come from other than Ukraine, and there's no reason to believe Ukraine is an especially likely source other than the assertion of a politician primarily known for conspiracy theories (and with an obvious political interest in discrediting the programme of weapons transfers to Ukraine). Unless something new comes out, we shouldn't include this. AntiDionysius (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

i apologise i didnt do a deep dive of the politician in question.i agree that she is known for her conspiracy theories some of which are extremely radeical so her pov is not considered neutral in any way.i also agree we need better sources to include this information.its just the ukranian president's (who himself is a jew) open support to nazis who faught against russia in ww2 and russias old allegations of ukraine today full of neo nazis gives this info of ukraine linked with anti israel/anti jew activities some consideration but unless we get better reliable sources its all consipracy theories. Observer1989 (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine already accused Russia of planting the story. Plus on a personal level I doubt the veracity especially since Hamas is a friend of Iran. Borgenland (talk) 07:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

yes ukraine accused russia of planting the story and then their president went on and honored a nazi fully knowing who he was and what he has done so i wont bet on ukraines credibility. in any case thats not the topic here.without proper evidence its just a conspiracy. Observer1989 (talk) 13:14, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Magramo, Kathleen; Yeung, Jessie; Renton, Adam; Upright, Ed; Berlinger, Joshua; Sangal, Aditi; Andone, Dakin (10 October 2023). "US President Biden: Hamas attack on Israel is "an act of sheer evil"". Israel at war with Hamas after unprecedented attacks. CNN. Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023. People in Israel lived suffered "pure unadulterated evil" at the "bloody hands of the terrorist organization Hamas, a group whose stated purpose for being is to kill Jews. This is an act of sheer evil," Biden said Tuesday.
2. "عاجل" (Post on 𝕏). 𝕏 (in Arabic). Al Jazeera. 10 October 2023. Archived from the original on 10 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023. {{cite web}}: Text "بايدن: حماس وضعت هدفا لها وهو قتل اليهود" ignored (help)
3. "From India to Israel, US weapons being used to attack its allies". India Today. Retrieved 10 October 2023.
4. "Did the weapons Hamas used against Israel come from Ukraine or Afghanistan? asks US Congresswoman". Firstpost. 9 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023.
5. "'Hamas May Be Firing American Weapons': U.S. Congresswoman Makes Stunning Claim | Watch". Hindustan Times. 9 October 2023. Retrieved 10 October 2023.

Even Israelis have been selling weapons to Palestinians, so little can be concluded from them simply having American weapons. FunkMonk (talk) 17:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

• No, do not include it please. The entire world is using American weapons. This must be something much bigger than rifles. My very best wishes (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023 (5)

This edit request to October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

{{subst:trim|1= The map on this page is wrong according to google maps and israel forces speech + the us supports israel and iran supports hamas, this info was on the page at the beginning but now its gone i want to add the supporters and change the map

The issue of Iranian involvement was discussed further up this talk page; it would probably be best to join that discussion if you wish to see it added back. As for the map, could you be more specific about what you think should be changed? --AntiDionysius (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas invaded the settlements? Or did they brutally murder and burn and strangle seven hundred people? What is this insanity?

I read the entry carefully. It's very embarrassing. In the entire first section it is not even accidentally mentioned that they murdered people in Israel. It doesn't say they shot babies. It is not written that they made a massacre. It is not written that girls were raped before they were murdered. All concepts are written in ambiguity: "invaded Israel", "breached the border", "there were attacks", "entered the settlements". Is this the English Misplaced Pages?! המבין (talk) 11:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If you want to make an edit request, please do so. Please supply reliable sources in support of any request. Thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

sources? we don't accept original research as a source here Abo Yemen✉ 11:28, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Why no mention of how the babies' heads were CUT OFF by Hamas murderers?

In the news reports from I24NEWS, the reporter states how babies heads were cut off by sick Hamas terrorists.

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711718195025821976

BEYOND HORRIFIC: 40 Babies & Children Murdered, BEHEADED In Kfar Aza - YWN 204.128.182.16 (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

these sources are clearly biased and i've seen the video on twitter and there are no chopped-off heads shown Abo Yemen✉ 17:27, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

They are not. It has been confirmed by CNN reporter Nic Robertson:

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-reporter-confirms-gruesome-decapitations-at-kibbutz-attacked-by-hamas-shot-executed-heads-cut/

Besides, Al Jazeera seems to have been deemed a perfectly legitimate source throughout this article, despite its known bias. Sources with an opposing bias should be given equal treatment.

Also, why is it that under "10 October" (and in several other places throughout the article) the word "claim" Is used twice in reference to Israeli entities, whereas under "casualties/Palestinian" and the like it's "reported"? I'm all for objective language, but "claims" sound distinctly less reliable than "reports". 108.14.7.151 (talk) 10:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

No. "Invaded" and "attacked" are not terms of ambiguity. The (implied) changes wanted by the IP editor should not be made. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you by any chance trying to push a particular WP:POV? Edward-Woodrow • talk 21:12, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

The ONLY source for the "beheaded babies" claim is a pro-genocide member of a radical settler movement, David Ben Zion. Several international journalists and news agencies already debunked the allegations.

Anadolu contacted the Israeli military over the phone to ask about the claims, with their spokesperson unit saying: "We have seen the news, but we do not have any details or confirmation about that". A French reporter based in Jerusalem, Samuel Forey, said on X that he was in the Kfar Aza settlement, located less than 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) from northeastern Gaza, on Tuesday but no one had mentioned the alleged decapitations. Aren Ziv, an Israeli photojournalist, likewise said he saw no evidence of beheaded infants, while neither the Israeli army nor spokesperson also did not mention any such incidents. Even the IDF said it had nothing to back up these claims.

See:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/despite-refutations-from-israeli-military-headlines-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-persist/3016167

https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-wont-back-up-beheaded-babies-disrespectful-2023-10 Hookko27 (talk) 00:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

If the New York Times or Washington Post or BBC or other reliable source reports mass rapes or beheaded babies the material will be added. It cannot be added just because you have found such allegations somewhere on the Internet. Brian Dell (talk) 04:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Displacement figures

Maybe I'm missing something, but does it make sense that the infobox says the figures are "per Palestine", and then in that list there's "200,000 displaced", which is very clearly attributed to the UN in the source? There is no indication in the source that the UN is merely repeating a figure told to them by Palestine. Shouldn't this figure be in a separate list? Why have a list of Palestinian claims that isn't Palestinian claims? Unknown Temptation (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This has now been fixed. Riposte97 (talk) 02:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Decapitation of babies in Kfar Aza

A French journalist has revealed the existence of this (https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651). When it emerges on a better source than Twitter, it'll need adding to the article under the Palestinian war crimes section. I haven't found another source yet so putting this here in case anyone else finds one. Chessrat 17:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Already being discussed above. Section here Selfstudier (talk) 17:35, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/kfar-aza-israel-village-hamas-attack-b2427446.html but

"‘When Hamas came they decapitated women and children’ an Israeli major in the village a few kiolmetres from Gaza, tells Bel Trew. The bodies are hidden so it’s impossible to verify, but it is clear much blood has been shed"

We can't add to war crimes unless a source mentions war crimes. Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-reporter-confirms-gruesome-decapitations-at-kibbutz-attacked-by-hamas-shot-executed-heads-cut/ Chabadtzke (talk) 02:15, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

"Die Welt" reports a interview of a woman who talks about a war crime by hamaz.

A woman reports in a interview of the murder of her grand mother. She got killed by hamas terrorists, who recorded her dead body and posted it on her grandmothers facebook account. Poles Ragge (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Is this a request for this to be included in the article? AntiDionysius (talk) 17:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

If so, I would be inclined to go against its inclusion; not that it's not horrible, but it is one of a very large number of atrocities. The section on war crimes does not list individual cases, and I think that's a wise choice that should not be overridden without a very strong specific reason, given the hundreds (if not thousands) of potential entries on such a list. AntiDionysius (talk) 17:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that we can't include every death in this article, nor every newspaper article about a death. Walt Yoder (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel preparing for "months long ground campaign" in Gaza

A recent report which is important. Ecrusized (talk) 18:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Thai death count now at 18

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/i-just-want-my-son-families-of-thai-workers-in-israel-face-painful-wait-for-news 45.51.103.71 (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

This has now been superseded. Archiving. Riposte97 (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

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